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It was pretty miserable. Basically, the angel investors played chicken with us. They knew we couldn't get money from anyone else, since we didn't even know for sure if we owned our software. So they proposed to do a cramdown round where they would refinance the company, I believe, at a pre-money va…

Graham: There were always people trying to buy us. There was another one just at the point where we found Fred Egan—a Japanese company that later made an imitation of our software and went on to become a big success in Japan. Rakuten, they were called.

Livingston: They copied you?

Graha…

You know, in retrospect I think the big problem with our investors was that we weren't forceful enough with them. I think investors like to be bossed around, like horses. It reassures them when you're in control. But these guys were much older than us and had given us huge sums of their money, so i…

Livingston: If Robert was so reluctant, why did you start the company with him?

Graham: Well, first of all he was my best friend, so I really trusted him, but he's also one of the best programmers in the world. I'd rather have a quarter of his brain working on some problem than 100 percent of…

Livingston: If Robert was so reluctant, why did you start the company with him?

Graham: Well, first of all he was my best friend, so I really trusted him, but he's also one of the best programmers in the world. I'd rather have a quarter of his brain working on some problem than 100 percent of…